Starting Issue

I'm a noob... I'll start with that.

For the past month, my bike has not been able to start on its own. I have to push start it every time. This morning my legs and ass are like rubber because it's getting harder and harder to crank her over.

Is there anything else aside from a broken starter that could be causing the problem?

Once it is cranked, the bikes works fine.

 

Could be the starter relay, could be the starter, could be the start button, could be wiring issue. What are the symptoms when you hit the start button?

 

She chuggs like she wants to start but it just won't turn over on it's own. I have a battery recharger that I use frequently and the battery is new so I don't think it's that.

I probably will have the work done at the shop but I don't like going to the mechanic uneducated. For example, if there is a way to test the starter or relay system with a voltage regulator, I'd like to be able to tell the mechanic what the problem might be sort of thing.

edit to print this from another computer
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/7795/

 

There is a great post by Gamuru.

http://www.xjbikes.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=7828.html

Check it out. I had a similar issue with my bike. It had been starting but suddenly stopped. After running through the steps listed in the post linked above, I found that it was my starter. Luckily I found a replacement starter on ebay for cheap and took my other one to a local place to look at and fix.

But definitly go through the post and see what you can find hope it helps.

 

I had a problem where my starter relay wasn't functioning. Replaced w/ a new one for 30 dollars and worked perfect since

 

If you are saying the starter is spinning but not turning over the engine there are three possibilities:

1) starter clutch is bad
2) starter is not spinning fast enough to engage the clutch
3) starter clutch is slipping due to oil additive or synthetic oil.

#3 is easiest just change your oil. If you used a synthetic it may cause slippage. If you use one with the long life additive it can also cause issues - what oil are you running?

#2 could be brush dust accumulated in the starter. It takes 2 bolts and remove the wire to pull it. Very easy to open the starter and clean everything up. Do it yourself and save a ton of money. Could also be the starter relay or other corrosion. Follow the debug guide given to you earlier to make sure your start circuit is up to par.

#1 is the fix of last resort. To replace the clutch means splitting the case. I assume you are not up to that if you are considering a shop to repair this issue. There is a short cut method without splitting the case but it can be difficult.

Odds are #2 or 3 are your problem.

Edit - let me encourage you to try to resolve it yourself. You will learn a lot by doing so and save a ton of cash over time. These bikes are easy to work on with basic skills (only a few things require any real expertise). All the information and help you need is right here on this site. Take your time, stay organized and you will do fine. Of course you MUST have a service manual to see how stuff should be done and get the specs you need.

 

i'm pretty sure the oil wasn't synthetic. i used valvoline 20w-50 motorcycle oil and to be honest the problem pre-dated my first oil change which was a few weeks ago

i can check out number two suggestion this weekend bill... thanks for the idea

i am also printing out the gamuru post and will try my hand at those ideas as well

thanks for giving me a head start

EDIT
okay this is another stupid noob question but do are voltage meters and continuity testers two different tools or is there an all in one type tool that would be fairly cheap to test some of this crap on my own

 

I'd like to make one other note as I'm sure that it is relevant...

On that how-to link Gamuru put up, there are instructions for replacing the fuse box. I printed out the instructions but when I yank the seat off my bike, there is no fuse box whatsoever. It looks like the fuses have been replaced with more modern ones but there is no box or dust cover or anything... they are just jumbled up and crammed every which way under the seat.

My question: Gamuru has the fuses listed as 10amp x3 and the main fuse being a 20amp.

At www.geocities.com/Moto...dway/7795/ it says the main fuse is a 30 amp

What size is the main fuse?

Also, one of the fuses on my bike is listed as a 7.5 amp... I'm thinking this is a bad thing.

 

Don's bike is a 650 and has a 20 amp main - some others have a 30 - I'd believe the link you have. the rest should all be 10 amp. The 7.5 should be replaced but would not be your problem.

A cheap multimeter will read voltage and continuity. You can find voltage and/or continuity checkers but a multimeter would be best. Hit up radio shack.

oil sounds fine. Does it sound like a mis meshed gear sort of? The clutch is a couple ff pins thrown out by the centrifical (sp?) l force of the starter spinning which then catch and spin the gear to start the motor. You can hear them slipping if they do not engage.

So next step is follow Don's guide. I would pull and clean the starter no matter what. Mine worked fine but was caked with dust.

 

By the way I had a similar fuse situation. I replaced that mess with a cheap block that I later replaced with one from Chacal. His is water resistant and made a neater installation for me.

If your fuses are but spliced in you should check for good connections for sure.

 

Not sure what you mean by this but there do not appear to be any weird sounds like that... just sounds like it is trying to start but won't

I would like to do both changes (replace fuse box and do "Don's checks." However, I know you are supposed to be one change at a time to isolate the problem. I am guessing doing the fuse box first is the first step? As in checking the connections?

 

In this case you could do both.

So let's clarify your noise. Does the engine turn over at all?
Do you hear the starter turn? Do you just hear a clicking noise? I think I misunderstood your basic problem.

If it's turning over normally but not starting - yet starts with a push I would guess you are not getting enough power to spark and turn the starter etc. So here are some easy first checks. You said your battery is good so I'll skip that part - I assume it does not start with your battery freshly charged also.

1) does the headlight go out when you push the starter button? ( I believe it is on when key is turned on correct?)

2) Verify you are getting a spark when cranking the starter.

Could be the headlight relay if #1 is not working, could be your coils getting weak if that is ok. You said it is getting harder to push start, how does it run once started?

Could be a short too. You can pull all but the ignition and main fuse (other 2 are headlight and signals) and give it a go that way. If she fores up replace fuses one at a time to see if you get the issue back.

My last guess is it could still be the starter needing to be cleaned. Harder to turn equals more current drawn.

 

"Verify you are getting a spark when cranking the starter"

I do not know how to perform this check. Like pull a spark plug wire and physically look while cranking the starter or something?

 

charlie: off topic, but i'm diggin' those pipes on your bike. where did you get those? how do they sound?

 

two ways

Pull the wire and look for spark to ground - (engine) crank the starter

Pull the plug - attach the wire and ground the plug to engine (be careful to be a bit away from the hole - don't need a fire.) crank the starter

Use a glove to insulate your hand too. Second way is probably easier to see.

 

appreciate the help bill... gonna work on this saturday and report back

i'm a bit nervous about screwing the bike up more but what the heck, if that happens that's why God made trailers to take the bike to the shop! i'm especially nervous about the fuse box mess because it looks like a bird nest of wires under my seat lol

"#2 could be brush dust accumulated in the starter. It takes 2 bolts and remove the wire to pull it. Very easy to open the starter and clean everything up. Do it yourself and save a ton of money."

one last question: yea this is totally making me out to be a noob but exactly where are these two bolts? i went to the yamaha website and looked at the diagram of the starter but it was hard to tell

as for the pipes on my bike, i believe they were taken off a Harley by the previous owner. i'm not sure how the sound would compare with stock pipes but in my opinion my bike almost sounds like a crotch rocket... doesn't have that loud cruiser sound to me

 

Hopefully this helps. Look at bolt numbered 20. On the left side of your bike Locate the alternator cover which is held by 3 bolts. Below and to the right you should see the back end of your starter. Remove the 2 bolts and the starter cable. Pull the starter. It will be a bit difficult since it has an o ring on the front but give it a good pull and it will come out.

Take the long bolts of fit and both ends come off. Clean brush dust out and clean the commutator (copper slats the brushes ride on) Use throttle cleaner or brake cleaner. Use steel wool lightly on the commutator to clean the copper. Be sure to clean any steel wool dust out. Check your brushes length. 8.5 mm is minimum. If near or < 8.5 replace them.

Use caution in reassembly. The brush plate and both covers have locator tabs for proper alignment.

 

yea that is the diagram i saw but wasn't sure what bolts... thanks once again for your assistance

 

I had that issue and pulled the starter, I had to clean the commutator and put a little grease on the gears and it worked like new. The fuses on mine were also giving me trouble so i got another 4 position fuse box and used the dremel to fit it in and replaced the cover. if you rotate the fuses on mine before sometimes the starter button would work and sometimes not. The starter can be checked with a set of jumper cables off the bike and shoud really spin.

 

Yea this weekend we narrowed the problem down to the starter (I think).

I bought all the stuff to redo the fuse box but didn't get to that. The guys helping me basically said don't mess with it because we couldn't find any shorts or problems with the multimeter.

One of the guys helping me is a good mechanic who said that it sounded like the starter was the issue. He said it sounded like it needed grease and to be cleaned out because there is a slight grinding sound when you hit the start button.

Problem is, when we went to go yank the starter out, we learned that one of the bolts had been broken off by the previous owner and a second one was frozen. The frozen one is located right under the tank and the mechanic friend didn't have time to drill it out.

 

Had a problem with my XJ700 starting, bike has 2400 miles, stored for a long time by previous owner....starter worked great when I bought it...Abou 1 month later had intermittent starts and got to a point where I had to roll it off to start.

Turned switch and got clicks but no start.....took off starter to clean up innerds, hooked up to a battery charger and worked fine....put back on bike and no start.....re-checked all electricals......everything was good to go....except no start.......grounds where all good

Found that, after all was said and done, all the complex stuff was gone through first.......had a weak ground to the starter....the ground for the starter is the body contacting the engine....which is only 2 points....see above posting diagram, where item 20 bolt hole flats touch the engine.

I took a fine file and re-surfaced the aluminum on the flat places on the engine and starter and replaced the starter.....now it starts every time...

There was a fine, non-conducting oxide layer preventing good electrical contact for a good ground preventing a complete circuit...

Check this out first on your 20+ year bike before you go through a lot of work like I did

 

hmmm... wonder if that is what the problem is. The bolt labeled 20 (well one of them as there are two) is the one that is sheared off. (The bolt is held in place by two or three threads if that.)

maybe i will try to drill that one out this weekend and see if that will help

on a side note, since guessing it was the starter working improperly i did a little experimenting

with the battery fully charged, rather than jump start it in the morning... i just kept trying to start it in place. it starts eventually




EDIT: Realization about the bolt that is sheared off (20). I just realized I am going to have to drill out the one under the seat first, and yank the starter before I can drill out bolt 20 since it sheared down near the threads

*head smack to face*

 

Mine was very clean but the ground contact is a very good point. But as long as you pull the starer you might as well clean it - very easy to do.

 

oh heck yea... i will definitely clean it when i get the dang thing off

the starter is beginning to get worse... or maybe i am just noticing it more but when you crank the engine the starter grinds... makes me almost certain that this is a starter issue

now if only i could get that effer off!

 

I wanted to officially thank Pete (TIMEtoRIDE) for helping me with my starter issue.

While one of the bolts holding the starter on is still frozen and the starter still needs work... Pete helped me come up with a creative solution.

My bike is rigged beyond belief from an electrical standpoint. The bike was taken from a junk yard and rebuilt by a mechanic. The bike had no gages and no headlight when he started.

Apparently when he installed an aftermarket headlight, he had to bypass the switch that turns the headlight off when you hit the starter button.

Pete helped me realize that because the headlight was draining all the power, there was little left for the spark plugs to fire the bike up.

So we went down to the auto parks store and rigged a switch up to the headlight so that I could manually turn it off prior to starting the bike.

Works like a charm... thanks again Pete!!!

Found a cheap tool bag to cover it up after getting back to Polk County Saturday so now the switch is nice and covered up from the elements too.

 

Hi guys I was reading all of the post hoping to see my issue. Not to be. I have two xj 750r's that both do the same thing. I have to stab the starter button many times to get current to the starter. On one I took the button apart and clean it and lubed it. (Note) these buttons do not stick or are they stiff to push in. It just seems that the connection is not happening. With both bikes approximately the same age is this a common problem. Can any one tell me from the starter button how is the circuit made to the starter. After current is made the starter functions properly. Bob

 

sherman204: bad solenoid? Trace the big wire/piece of metal from the battery to the round thing about 2.5" diameter. Using a voltmeter see if you get 12+v on BOTH bolts when the starter ISN'T turning. 12+v on both = solenoid is good, 12+v on one(when pressing start button) = solenoid is bad

 

sherman204: I was also having the 'won't engage issue'. I started my troubleshooting from the other end though. Your starter solenoid is right next to the battery. It's got two wires that will trace back to the starter button. Check for corrosion in the wires, and make sure you have continuity in the small wires connected to the solenoid. I had resistance in one of my wires. I unsoldered, trimmed, and re-soldered, and now the starter spins on 8 of 10 start tries. I'm going to clean up the switch today. Hopefully that will get the other 2 tries cleaned up.

 

Could also be the solenoid itself. Mine would work say 8 of 10 times. I replaced it and the problem was gone. I opened the old one (note an easy task) and cleaned it up. It works fine now too.

 

Thanks to all of you. It sound like the first part to be checked is the solenoid.
I'm currently getting ready to paint the honda bobber so this next week will be devoted to first spending time with my Bride of 31 years to celebrate our anniversary then getting some paint on the bobber. So the following week will be devoted to curing the starting problem on the seca.
On an unrelated issue any one out there know what effects the turn signal speed. It seems that I installed some after market bulb type signals on this bike. They work fine as long as the RPM is above 2000 below this they don't perform.. any ideas why. Bob

 

turn signal bulbs should be 27 w.

 

If your turn signals are not working below 2k rpm check your battery. Below about that point you are running off the battery. Make sure the fluids are full and it is fully charged.

May not be related but that is an interesting problem. Could be part of your starting problem too.

 

I have a similar problem with my signals on one of my 750's. The left ones won't blink under 2000 rpm and the right ones work fine. I think it might be the wrong bulbs. So what is the correct bulb the signals are supposed to have in them?

 

Given the years of your bikes I would think they all use 1156's

Newer bikes with the turns being running lights would use 1157s like the brakes.

Like wiz said they are 27W bulbs.