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turn signal self cancelling mod.

Discussion in 'XJ Technical Chat' started by bensalf, May 4, 2020.

  1. bensalf

    bensalf Well-Known Member

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    hi all,
    I've just bought another xj600 euro model, (my third now) ,I am going to turn it into a bobber type bike ,sometime in the near future. I am looking to do some mods on the electrical circuits, involving changing the turn signals to led ones , and changing the clocks to digital.
    at the moment I am working on the turn signals, I have them all working now with the original bulbs in.
    I am well aware of the led situation ,with the flasher relay , and I am hoping to get the self cancelling working from an electronic relay (with the mod write up), but disposing of the reed switch in the speedo.
    my question is how can I "simulate" getting the self cancelling working whilst the bike is partially built in my garage. at present everything is stock.
    I believe the self cancelling requires approx. 250 metres of forward travel plus 20 seconds of time to have elapsed, the time bit aint a prob, but how can I simulate the forward travel.
    would putting a battery drill on the speedo cable give me the "travel " and how does the flasher relay "count" the revolutions.
    i've tried grounding the white and green wire that goes to the clocks, then open circuiting it , but cant get them to self cancel in the garage.
    anyone know precisely how this system works.
    thanks
    stu


    p.s. ive swopped the relay for a spare, and cleaned (well, sprayed) the contacts in the handlebar switch.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
  2. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    you could try the speedo cable thing because the tire rotation will not work
    self canceler should just time out but I have never had that happen.
    it will distance cancel but I think it has to be above a certain speed to do that.

    the reed switch picks up a signal when speedo is moving then cancels out.

    there is no drawing I am aware of that tells what is in the little black box.
     
  3. SQLGuy

    SQLGuy Well-Known Member

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    It does not just time out. It must have both time AND distance to cancel. The point is to not cancel when you're sitting at a long light, but also not to cancel too quickly when you're changing lanes at highway speeds.

    The reed switch periodically grounds the white/green wire. I have no idea how many pulses it takes to indicate 150 meters to the canceller. I think you would have to measure that, and, if you're not using the stock speedo, you would instead need some other output from the speedo you do use, or a magnet/pickup on the front wheel, to provide a reasonably correct number of grounding pulses.
     
  4. Polock

    Polock Well-Known Member

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    when your thumb gets tired it self cancels
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. bensalf

    bensalf Well-Known Member

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    :p:p:D, that's brill , pollock.
    thanks guy's , i'll do some more investigating
     
  6. XJ550H

    XJ550H Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I think he has a post some where on that mod
     
  7. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    The self cancelling unit works on frequency to voltage conversion coupled with an RC time constant. The frequency of the pulses at 30 miles per hour is approximately 74 Hz. The frequency is obtained by the gear ratio of the wheel to speedometer cable drive, and quadrupled as each revolution of the speedometer cable results in 4 cycles on the reed switch. It would take something more than just a magnet / sensor on the wheel to approach those numbers as the wheel revolution at 30 miles per hour is only about 6.5 Hz.
     
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  8. SQLGuy

    SQLGuy Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. Seems overly complicated. I wonder why they didn't just use a resettable counter instead....

    Anyway, sounds like the simpler solution would probably be a replacement for the self-cancelling unit that did take a pulse from a wheel magnet. A programmable divider and a 555 timer could do it.
     
  9. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    early 1980's?? I agree, I always thought a simple counter circuit like you mentioned even for that era was doable in a small package.

    Oh, and for those that have tried spinning the wheel in theory that should work, however, the circuit has some built in decay in it so it may be hard to stay ahead of that. If you sit at an extra long light or just stop for a prolonged period (couple of minutes) you can notice the point of cancel is further out than what would have been with a quick stop.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
  10. bensalf

    bensalf Well-Known Member

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    yes, thanks guys, I did some more investigating today ,
    I put a wooden matchstick, in the battery drill ,and spun the speedo, with a buzzer/meter, coupled to the reed switch and ground.
    and ,as "rooster" says , the buzzer sounds 4 times for each revolution of the cable.
    so I set the signal going on the bike , and put the battery drill on the speedo again , and it cancelled every time , after 1/10 of a mile.
    even turning the drill as slow as it could go , which didn't even register on the speedo, it still cancelled after 1/10 of a mile.
    the buzzer pulses , even at 5 mph, were indistinguishable , and sounded like a continuous low tone.
    I tried to simulate the pulses by setting the signals going, then grounding the reed switch wire as fast as I could ,repeatedly , but I only managed to cancel them once , after several times of trying.
    i'm just uploading some pictures , be back in a mo.
     
  11. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    The stated spec is 150 meters or 490 feet, so 1/10 of a mile (528 feet) is quite close. The distance will be the same up to about 30 MPH at which point the frequency to voltage converter saturates and the cancel time is set strictly by the internal RC network, which is about 10 seconds. And of coarse, the faster you are going above 30 the greater the distance traveled before cancelling. So, the general logic is 490 feet or 10 seconds, whichever occurs last.
     
  12. Dave in Ireland

    Dave in Ireland Well-Known Member

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    All of my self-cancelling boxes on all my bikes are defunct, so I'm quite used to manual cancel.
    Occasionally I forget though, and remind myself that I've got a simple 10 second timer to install, sometime.
     
  13. bensalf

    bensalf Well-Known Member

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    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    All of my self-cancelling boxes on all my bikes are defunct, so I'm quite used to manual cancel.
    Occasionally I forget though, and remind myself that I've got a simple 10 second timer to install, sometime.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    yes ,I looked into doing the same , but I ca'nt figure out how a timer would work.
    it would only work once. then after its timed out (or open circuits ) then the signals wont work again. its a complicated setup and not easy to replicate
    stu
     
  14. kosel

    kosel Active Member Premium Member

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    I picked up the STS Smart Turn System for my FJR 1300 when they had a sale a few weeks ago. It's always annoyed me that my 1982 Yamaha has self-canceling turn signals while my 2013 does not.
     
  15. SQLGuy

    SQLGuy Well-Known Member

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    A timer, which would be better than nothing, but not nearly as good as original, would need a relay and a 555 circuit. It would reset and start timing when given the enablement pulse that comes on the Y/R being pulled to ground when the turn signal switch is pushed to one side or the other. Once running, it would disconnect the Y/G that runs to the original flasher. When the timer expired (or when the timer first gets power) it needs to come up in a mode that applies 12V to the Y/G wire. So, you pretty much need a relay that includes normally closed contacts to run that 12V through to Y/G.

    But, if you're building such a timer circuit, you could also add a pulse counter tied to a front wheel magnet and sensor, so you could implement similar logic of time AND distance before shutoff, just like the original circuit.

    And, if you're building all this, you could also just build your own with a modern electronic flasher as well, and not have to disable it quite the same way.
     
  16. bensalf

    bensalf Well-Known Member

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    OH, o_O
     
  17. Rooster53

    Rooster53 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I did this a couple of years ago to satisfy curiosity. Here is what is inside the self cancelling unit:

    upload_2020-5-22_15-19-14.png

    And for those interested PDF schematic attached
     

    Attached Files:

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