82 XJ550 Seca Starter issue

So my wife did something amazing and bought me a bike. It's my first one other than dirt bikes growing up, so I'm really excited, but it doesn't run yet. Here's the problem: I have the bike in neutral and turn the key. The neutral light lights up. Then I hit the starter button and the starter motor cranks at full force, but the engine won't start. I pulled the plugs and tried to see if I have a spark and I don't. I've been trying to follow the wiring diagram ( which is super confusing without much mechanical/electrical understanding) and I THINK it has something to do with the red and white wire that leads directly to the plugs as well as all of the safety switches (i.e. kickstand relay etc.) My wife said that the previous owner said that it ran fine, and then he power washed it and it wouldn't spark anymore, and since he had another bike he just sold it instead of trying to fix it. I'm kind of at a loss for how to run down an electrical issue though. I know I need either a multimeter or a test light, but if I'm being perfectly honest I don't really know how to use either.

 

Congrats! My wife bought me my bike a little over 2 years ago. Nice to have spousal support!
Here's a handy wiring diagram that makes it much simpler to follow: http://www.lumien.se/stuff/xj550/XJ550ElectricalDiagram.html

There are a ton of useful pages here, but to start with:
http://www.lumien.se/stuff/xj550/XJ550ElectricalDiagram.html
https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/in-the-church-of-clean.14692/
https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/the-ultimate-relay-switch-sensor-and-diodes-guide.27543/
https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/tech-topic-the-real-costs-of-maintenance.14581/

For your bike, yes there's a kickstand relay. You can actually pull the relay to test if the switch is interfering. Since the start runs, it probably isn't that. You can easily check spark. There are 2 coils for 4 cylinders, so you just have to check 2 of the plugs for spark (I forget how the coils are split up, 1-4 and 2-3 or the other way).
If you have spark, try starting w/ some starter fluid sprayed in the airbox. If that gets it going for a short while, it's carbs, most likely. See the 2nd link above. In all likelyhood, you'll want to go through those properly. I had mine done by "hogfiddles", but you might enjoy the rebuild. Just be sure to do it well as the link states. One missed seal can cause issues. My bike has been running very well with the carbs completely gone through and it's well worth doing that job right the 1st time.
Best of luck!
David

 

Thanks for the input! I was planning on trying to clean the carbs, but I kinda feel like the first order of business is figuring out why I don't have spark. I've pulled all 4 and grounded them on the engine block while cranking the starter and nothing. Looking at the wiring diagram it seems possible that the starter motor could turn even if the TCI is bad. Obviously replacing the TCI is a more expensive fix than say finding a loose connector. Do you (or anyone else) have any insight into figuring out if it's my TCI or some other issue preventing the plugs from firing?

 

One quick thing is "no spark on all cylinders, it's probably not both coils".
Another issue on these bikes is the fuse box. The first thing I did was replace it with a blade-style fuse box and all the lights got brighter!
Related, low battery voltage will cause the TCI not to fire. I made this mistake. I thought the battery in the bike, once charged was good enough. Once I got a new one from Walmart, it fired much better!

https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/threads/how-to-install-an-aftermarket-fuse-box.6350/

David

PS. here is what did on my bike.. not saying yours needs all of it, but might give you a sense for what to look out for: https://www.xjbikes.com/forums/showcase/xj550rh.47/

 

There are a number of safety systems (switches and relays, etc.) that can prevent:

a) the starter motor from operating at all (obviously this is not your issue)
b) allow the starter motor to operate, but prevent the TCI from firing the coils (thus no spark at the plugs).

Look thru the link posted above "ultimate relay switch sensor diode guide" and start working thru those steps to see if you can locate the issue, or, at least eliminate what the cause may be. The TCI is usually the LAST place to look for problems, as It is pretty durable and it's unusual to have a complete failure of it.

 

So The original fuse box has already been replaced with inline fuse holders, and I went through to make sure the fuses are in good shape. Could it be as simple as my battery doesn't have enough charge? Like I said, I don't know much about this stuff, but if there's not enough charge to get a spark would there be enough to make the starter motor turn over? Seriously, thanks for responding to all these questions. This is probably really basic stuff, but I'm just trying to figure out what I'm doing right now. And Thanks chacal, I'll try to go through that guide when I get home from work tonight.

 

I noticed when I had a fresh battery, the engine cranked much faster than before. That all helps w/ moving air through the carbs as well (drawing fuel with it).

Good rule of thumb, unless you did the work, assume the previous owner didn't unless you have proof otherwise. Can't hurt to get a new battery. If you're working through starting issues, having a charger handy to keep it fully charged is also a good idea.

 

Alright, I'll give a new battery a shot and then start working through the relay switch sensor diode guide you linked through. Even if it's not the battery a new one couldn't hurt. Thanks

 

Sometimes, ( during the day) the 'blue' spark can be a bit weak on stock XJ ignition systems......just fyi make sure it's not actually trying to spark,..plus often a weak spark on the cylinder head = next to nowt once under compression....wouldn't hurt to try a (truck) battery, just to turn her over, but yes, it DOES sound like the interlock/starter relay systems aren't functioning properly

 

New DMM's are cheap and a good item to have in the toolbox for just such occasions as checking your battery. The issue could be your battery, but why guess as they are quite pricey and the DMM will tell you if you need to replace it. It's a simple check, place the DMM to the 20VDC scale and connect it to the battery terminals. Crank the bike and verify the voltage does not drop below 10V; fully charge the battery before conducting the test.

The starter cutoff and ignition cutoff safety circuits are somewhat separate. It is possible to temporarily disable the ignition cutoff by either removing the side stand relay or by disconnecting the B/W wire to the TCI. The B/W wire is located on the TCI 6 pin connector and should connect to a bullet connector nearby where it can be disconnected to disable the ignition cutoff safety circuit.

 

Alright, I disconnected the black and white ignition cut off wire at the bullet connector by the TCI, but no luck. I’ll pick up a DMM tomorrow. Sounds like it’ll be handy to have anyway. I was gonna hook up the bike to my car battery, but I can’t for the life of me find my jumper cables. I think maybe I loaned them to someone and never got them back. I did see that the voltage gauge hovers around 10 when I turn on the ignition... I know that it’s a 35 year old gauge, but I wonder how accurate it is. If the only real problem turns out to be that I’m not getting enough power for the plugs I don’t think I’d be too upset. I may rather have to replace a battery than hunt through all the wiring on the thing. Thanks everyone

 

Ok, based on what people have said here along with other reading on the internet and seeing the voltage meter on my bike go from somewhere between 10 and 12 all the way down to almost zero when I crank the engine I think that I likely have high resistance between my battery and the starter motor, so there's probably some corrosion in there somewhere. If I'm right about that would the voltage drop that causes be enough to prevent my spark plugs from igniting?

 

Yes, there are several things that affect this and resistance is certainly one of them. For me, the fuse box was a big source of resistance. The condition of the battery will also be important since a poor battery can show full voltage, but not deliver the current, which means the voltage drops more when you're cranking. I also had a starter relay issue a year or so later, but that was more of a crank/no-crank thing, not a "crank but no spark" thing.

 

Yes using the instrument cluster meter in this case should be accurate enough to tell you that you have either a battery issue or a poor connection somewhere. The most likely issue is the battery so using the external DMM is what you need to do before you go chasing too many other issues. That said, cleaning up the high current grounds (battery to engine and engine to frame) and battery terminals would not be time wasted, as well as inspecting the fuse box as dkavanagh suggested as it is often a problem.

Does the on board meter drop much if you apply the brake lights?

 

No it doesn't

 

Also, I picked up a DMM on my lunch break today, so hopefully that helps

 

You'll get this sorted out if we have anything to say about it!

 

Ok, so I picked up a DMM. The voltage on the battery is 10.43. Too low I know. When I ran the starter it dropped to 1.83. I hooked up my bike battery to my car battery and the voltage measured 12.6ish, then when I try to start it that way the voltage drops to 10 or so. I know that’s too much of a drop, and since that’s just terminal to terminal does that mean bad battery? Still no spark even when I have it hooked up to the car

 

Also, I was wrong earlier when I said the on board meter doesn’t drop when the brake lights come on. It does drop noticeably, but not near as much as it does when I hit the starter

 

You don't want the cranking voltage to drop below 10 volts. Replace your battery and check everything that rooster and dkavanagh suggest

 

Definitely too low, if you have a battery tender let the battery charge overnight to see what you get.

And be sure to try it with the car battery attached and the B/W wire disconnected from the TCI.

 

Ok, on the docket to try tonight. Thanks for all the help.

 

So I know it’s been a few days since I posted an update. No real time to put any work in this weekend. Anyway, I’m getting ~12 volts into the ignition coils, but still nothing out. What are the chances both ignition coils could go at once?

 

Next to none.

Did you unplug the B/W wire that Rooster asked you to unplug from the TCI?

 

That’s kinda what I figured. Yeah, I disconnected the bullet connector by the tci. Still nothing.

 

Is there a chance my starter is drawing enough power when I crank it that it’s preventing spark? I noticed tonight that it’s having a slightly harder time cranking than it was a week ago. I forgot to check to see if there was a big voltage drop at the ignition coil when I crank it. Is there a way to be sure it’s the starter motor before I pay for a new one? I just don’t want to throw a bunch of money at parts that may not actually be bad

 

I did not see in the thread(might have missed it) , but you might replace start solenoid ...they are cheap , I had start problems ( push button nothing happen , shut off ignition and turn back on and would start) when I pulled solenoid I pulled back insulator corrosion was pretty bad .

 

Yes if your battery is bad the spark will be very weak or non-existent. You didn't really say if you were still using the jumper cables here??

The starter itself is way down the list of items when troubleshooting spark so I don't see a need to buy one.

That's going to be very important so you need to check that again. You can also test the same voltage at the TCI R/W wire by back probing that pin while cranking the bike.

And from the link that dkavanaugh posted earlier and some more DMM training this would be a value added check for spark. The pick-up coils and the ignition coil primaries can be checked at the TCI main harness connectors. The ignition coil secondaries are checked by ohming from plug cap 1 to 4 and 2 to 3.

XJ550 models:

Pick-up coils:
650 ohms +/- 20% = 520 ohms to 780 ohms acceptable range ( TCI 6 pin connector Gr to B and O to B) - DMM set to 2K ohms


Ignition Coils:

Primary side (input from main wiring harness):
2.5 ohms +/- 10% = 2.25 ohms - 2.75 ohms acceptable range (4 pin connector R/W to O and R/W to Gr) - DMM set to 200 ohms

Secondary side (spark plug wires, without their end caps):
11K ohms +/- 20% = 8,800 ohms - 13,200 ohms acceptable range (Spark plug caps 1 to 4 and 2 to 3 with caps add 20K) - DMM set to 200K ohms

Spark plug caps:
10K +/- 20% = 8,000 to 12,000 ohms per cap acceptable range

 

I was still using jumper cables here, sorry. I know I still need to get out to get a new battery. Ok, I'll give that link another read through to make sure I understand it and do some more thorough testing when I get home. Thanks for the specifics in your post. I know this is all probably super basic stuff, but it's brand new for me, so thanks everyone for your patience. I do think I'm starting to get what I'm doing at least a little bit.

 

I think I found my problem. There’s a short from the battery to the starter solenoid. The positive battery lead for sure needs replaced. Hopefully that’ll fix my problem. I’ll update once I can get a new one

 

Well, there is supposed to be a thick wire between the battery and starter solenoid. That's what delivers power to the starter. A "short" implies there's a connection, which there should be.

 

Rule #1--NEVER believe ANYTHING A previous owner says........ESPECIALLY to the wife who is looking to buy a bike for her husband as a surprise gift. (WHICH, by the way, is an exceedingly rare occurance.......you better treat her right, cuz she's OBVIOUSLY a keeper!!!!!

 

All the rest of the issues, you and we can straighten out

 

Why do you think there is a short from the battery to the solenoid?

 

Oh I know she's a keeper, I'm still shocked 2 weeks later!

So, Maybe short is the wrong term, but when I'm not cranking the starter there's like 12 volts coming out of the starter solenoid, but when I crank it it drops the same way it does when I check anywhere else along that line. It may be the solenoid, but the battery cable that leads to the solenoid was wrapped pretty heavy with electrical tape, and when I peeled it back I saw that the plastic connector that leads off of it was scorched pretty badly. I ordered a new positive battery cable, because even if that's not the problem that seems unsafe. I may order a new starter solenoid too, because they're super cheap.

 

Good idea replacing that cable. As with most things, "never hurts" often competes with "I keep throwing money at it", but this is probably money well spent. That and a fresh battery and you've helped ensure good power for starting.